Julian Phillips.

Simon J Dudley (00:30:24) Yeah. All right. Hello everyone. Simon Dudley, the Before It Was Obvious podcast. Welcome to the show. This week's guest is a man I've known for ⁓ about I don't know how long, ten to fifteen years, something like that, Mr Julian Phillips of XTG. ⁓ Julian, say hello to the ladies and gentlemen. Julian Phillips (00:30:48) Hello ladies and gentlemen. It's it's wonderful to be here with the amazing Simon Dudley, who does not know Simon Dudley. ⁓ and ⁓ I know this is early days for your podcast, but I've already watched some of them and they have been fascinating conversations. So I'm delighted to come and join you in hopefully another one. Simon J Dudley (00:31:08) Well, thank you, my friend, and and I appreciate you coming onto the show as well. I think this is gonna be a really fascinating conversation. So let's do what we always do and start with Julian, you have had a long storied career and we're gonna get into that. But let's start with what are you doing today? Because you're a man of many hats. So what do you do ⁓ at this time? Julian Phillips (00:31:34) Well, you're right, I do wear many hats and ⁓ y when you get to my age there's a reason why you tend to wear more hats. ⁓ and the f the biggest hat I wear is I lead this organisation inside AVI SPL called XTG, which stands for the Experience Technology Group. ⁓ we started ⁓ literally as a start up inside AVI SPL just nearly five years ago. ⁓ and our mission was to really ⁓ become the leader in experiential technology solutions around the world. ⁓ and we had to create ourselves as a startup simply because the way that you go and do experiential technology in many ways is different from normal AV integration. ⁓ It's a different ecosystem, different partners, you're trying to bring together not just technology but corporate real estate, architectural design, content creation, fabrication, all these different elements ⁓ that I suppose in many ways are from the Avixa playbook of creating the exceptional experience. It's, you it's space, it's content, it's technology. ⁓ And so we've very much taken that to heart ⁓ and bringing that whole world together. So just as an example, we're very excited, one of our latest projects goes live this month ⁓ in Los Angeles, which is the George Lucas Museum of Narrative Art. Which we were heavily involved in. ⁓ And ⁓ that is something that's very exciting ⁓ and ⁓ will be one of the most iconic, I believe, ⁓ sort of immersive experiences that you can go and visit. So that's the kind of work we do all around the world. ⁓ So that's my number one hat. ⁓ Some people will not be surprised if I were to say that I also am responsible for AI strategy within AVISPL. so I do tend to talk about AI quite a bit. So we I'm co-chair of our AI Centre of Excellence along with our CIO. ⁓ and that's really interesting. We're doing some exciting things with AI there too. ⁓ I also care a lot about the future of education and talent and skills and the future of work. So I'm heavily involved in two ⁓ non-for-profit organizations. One's called the Future Talent Council, which is based in Stockholm. Julian Phillips (00:33:56) So if you think of the World Economic Forum and Davos, it's a similar kind of organisation, much smaller, but a similar kind of organization, but focused very much around education and the future of work. And I'm also co chair ⁓ of the IEEE, so the big standards organization that defines ⁓ Wi Fi, for example, amongst hundreds of other things, ⁓ on the Education Committee for ⁓ AI and Human Flourishing. So the big debate that we're all having at the moment is AI coming to take our jobs, what's it gonna do for humans as opposed to destroying everything that we know about humanity? So as you can see, I'm involved in ⁓ quite a lot and wearing a number of hats. Simon J Dudley (00:34:39) Yes, yes, you are. I wonder what time you get to sleep, but anyway, we'll we'll get into that in a minute. Okay, so you are ⁓ you're not just out of college, so you and I have quite a similar vintage actually. So my guess is that you didn't you weren't born and thought, I know, I'm gonna be running a whole bunch of AI projects somewhere. So let's talk about beginnings to start with. Where what was your early life like, ⁓ education, ⁓ early ideas of what work would look like for you? Because I think many people ⁓ look at folks who have been in the in this industry or any industry for a long time and have no idea how they got to where they are. So I'm really interested to know how did you start? Where did it all begin? Julian Phillips (00:35:33) If if anyone has read my book Levain, which is the first book I wrote, then they will know my origin story from there. But I I won't bother repeating it other than to say that I was very lucky I got to go to a very old school ⁓ called the Royal Grammar in Worcester, which ⁓ is actually the sixth oldest school in the world that is continually operating. ⁓ and with many traditions and and and sort of classical education in that respect. It just so happened that while I was there, and this is very topical at the moment, a certain event happened in the South Atlantic, ⁓ where suddenly the whole of the country became very patriotic, and it was called the Falklands War. ⁓ At my school, ⁓ w ⁓ we were part-time soldiers, airmen, and sailors too. We had a thing called the Cadet Force, and so I was an army cadet for five years there. And because of the the patriotism of the day, ⁓ literally every single it was an all boys' school, every single boy, pretty much, was destined for a career in the military, and so I followed suit. ⁓ and so my early story is one of failure. So I sort of became ⁓ on the ⁓ the roster with the military police and I was going for my final officer selection process ⁓ to be selected for officer training and I failed. ⁓ and the commandant from the selection process actually wrote a letter that says Julian has everything we're looking for in a British Army officer. He just needs to go away and clean toilets for a couple of years. I mean, literally, I've kept that letter. It was a classic. So for anybody that is interested in the highly curated career path, where everything is destined for you, irrespective of what school you go to and what education do you have. doesn't always work out the way that you would hope it would. So I didn't actually know as far as I was concerned, that was like, what am I gonna do now? ⁓ so guess what? I went worked in nightclubs. So I was I was actually a nightclub assistant manager. That was my first proper job. Now if anyone knows nightclubs in in the United Kingdom in the 1980s, that's not really a proper job. ⁓ but it was it was how I learned a lot of skills. Julian Phillips (00:37:58) Some of them I sh really shouldn't talk about. ⁓ and then I I suddenly realized as I was wasting my way away in the fabulous nightclub business that I really should do something serious with my life. ⁓ and I applied to go to university. So I did end up at Warwick University ⁓ and I studied history and politics. ⁓ And that was how I started to realize the you know, the potential of what the world could be. And then I sort of flunked it again, ⁓ when I came out of university. All the all the the ideals ⁓ of, you know, maybe I'll be an MP or Prime Minister or whatever. ⁓ so I ended up selling photocopias. That was my first job straight out of university. Simon J Dudley (00:38:48) We're gonna put a pin in photocopiers because unfortunately I sell fax machines probably not this similar period of time. So we're there's a history there, but I wanna go back a step. History and politics, you decide to do history and politics, why? Julian Phillips (00:39:06) It's what I studied when I was doing my A levels. So ⁓ I was fascinated by history. I still am. ⁓ I was fascin I'm fascinated by politics. I was actually in 1983, I was the school prime minister. ⁓ I actually ⁓ alongside Margaret Thatcher, put myself up for election ⁓ in at the school, became school prime minister, was invited to go to the Houses of Parliament. ⁓ Had lunch with the then Minister of Energy, Peter Walker, ⁓ was fated by all these and they actually I I have a copy of Hansard, which is the record of the day from Parliament, actually from the Speaker of the House at the time called Bernard Weatherall, that said, Dear Prime Minister, he actually wrote a note to me wishing that one day I would be on these green benches. So to an extent there was a sort of destiny calling me, ⁓ and I then went and sold photocopyers. Simon J Dudley (00:40:04) All right, so we're back to copy. Julian Phillips (00:40:05) My first but my first sale, however, Simon was a fax machine. I have to say it was a fax machine was my first sale. Simon J Dudley (00:40:11) Now, for those for the ladies and gentlemen who aren't of similar ⁓ vintage as Julian and I, we're talking about what, about 98, ⁓ mid eighties at this point. 88. So ⁓ to give I got into photocop into into fax machine sales because I could lift a fax machine. ⁓ they weighed a hundred pounds and cost ten thousand pounds ⁓ at the time. Think like an NEC fax eight, for example. Julian Phillips (00:40:21) Eight eighty eight. Simon J Dudley (00:40:40) I don't know why I remember I can't remember what I had for breakfast, but I do remember model numbers from 40 years ago. So isn't that fascinating? And I could lift one, by the way, because I used to load scaffold onto trucks. But but why did you get into photocopier sales? I mean, good money to be made, but but not many people go, I've got a history degree, I'm going to sell photocopiers. What what was that all about? Julian Phillips (00:41:02) Well, it had something to do with the thirteen thousand pounds. I mean, just to put it into context then, thirteen thousand pounds as a base salary plus commission was actually really good then. ⁓ but it was the brand new BMW three series they gave me which had something to do with that. So ⁓ th not many of my peers were driving around in a brand new BMW at that time. So ⁓ I was seduced a little bit by the lure of the the London and the streets of gold and a BMW. Simon J Dudley (00:41:18) Yeah, well Simon J Dudley (00:41:33) You so was I. I didn't have a BMW, I had a Peugeot 205 GTI. ⁓ fax machines fit, photocopiers wouldn't in a Peugeot 205. ⁓ Who we what were you I've got to ask, what were you selling? Which which manufacturers? Julian Phillips (00:41:47) Well, funny enough, in the context of ⁓ what this company is now doing in the A V world, it was Rico. ⁓ so but anyway, let's move on because these are ⁓ this is a long time ago. ⁓ Simon J Dudley (00:42:00) No, but it's fascinating to see. ⁓ my personal experience of that, of that era, and many people said it at the time, and I believe it's true, ⁓ is that working for someone like a Rico or a Xerox or a Canon selling photocopiers was really the equivalent of a degree in sales over if you did it for more than a couple of years, because you really learn a lot about how the actual world works. I I don't know that I'd encourage anyone to become a photocopy of salesman in the modern era, but it was an important and very a lot of people built careers out of that. Me being one of them, paintly you being another, and there were lots of others as well. So you did that, you you drove your BMW, ⁓ you ⁓ you got your thirteen thousand, I'm sure you did pretty well at it. I did too. I I out earned my headmaster ⁓ of my previous school, I out earned him at the age of twenty. and wrote on a on my P sixty, which is like the W two in the US, from the boy who would never amount to anything, circled it and faxed it to his office ⁓ and ⁓ apparently upsetting quite badly. Julian Phillips (00:43:13) one of the one of the values of selling fax machines. You can ⁓ f ⁓ fax abuse around the place. Yeah, exactly. Simon J Dudley (00:43:17) Five thirty one. I indeed I can. So you did that for how long? Julian Phillips (00:43:25) I only did it for a year, ⁓ because I suddenly realized that I I wanted to do more and I I tried to get into IT at the time and ended up interviewing with Hewlett Packard. ⁓ and they would I had about five interviews. They were going to offer me a job and then they had a recruitment freeze ⁓ then and the recruitment company that had put me forward said, We really like you and we're growing. They were ex Xerox guys. ⁓ And they said, Why don't you join us? So I ended up joining them and eventually becoming a partner in a recruitment firm that specialized in sales and management ⁓ recruitment for IT companies predominantly. And our biggest customer, our biggest client at the time was Dell. And Dell was this little PC company that had ⁓ come to disrupt the world of the early PC business by selling direct, whereas everyone sold through the channel. And we were recruiting a lot of their salespeople for them. And then my partner and I at the time, we we had this fabulous office. If anyone's been to Windsor, where the ⁓ the king resides a lot of the time, you will know the main gates at Windsor Castle. ⁓ our offices were literally on the opposite side of the road, overlooking the main gate. So at eleven AM every morning we would have the trooping of the colour outside our window. We literally had to not make any phone calls or do anything. And one morning the trooping of the colour had just passed by and and I looked at my partner who funny enough I had a call with the other day ⁓ and ⁓ said, Kevin, this really isn't fun anymore, is it? And we sort of realized that we there was this company called Dell that w we were making all these these salespeople and they were making lots of money and we were doing all this hard work and thinking, hang on a sec, why don't we jump on the bandwagon? So we basically made a decision to wind up the business. he went first, I stayed behind, and we ended up both joining Dell. When Dell was ⁓ a tiny little PC company ⁓ and actually ⁓ less than half the revenue ⁓ that AVI SPL is today globally when I joined. ⁓ Simon J Dudley (00:45:41) Right. Right. ⁓ but they grew fast, didn't they? To put it mildly. Julian Phillips (00:45:46) I was there for a decade and it grew nearly seventy times its size in that time period. So if you're talking about an education ⁓ of how something goes ⁓ literally because I never used to count years at Dell, I counted quarters because everything was based on a quarterly cycle and we would literally reinvent ourselves every three months. ⁓ and it was probably the best education You we were talking about MBAs and the value of an MBA earlier. But you know, if you really want an education in how to do business and how to constantly reinvent and and stay agile in in business, then join a fast growing company like that where it almost disrupts itself every three months. Simon J Dudley (00:46:32) Well of course and the ones that didn't, Gateway as a good example, or Compaq as a good example, or a million other PC vendors, they didn't disrupt themselves and lost as a result. Julian Phillips (00:46:44) One one of the things I was really good at, and I and I I think I I sort of learned this early on and it stayed with me my whole career, is I realized I wasn't going to be like everyone else. ⁓ so I just ⁓ when it came to joining Dell, I was constantly saying, Okay, so I join as a key account manager for large corporate accounts, which is what my first job was. But there's more to be done, there's things we aren't doing at the moment, and I would constantly be coming up with proposals on doing things differently. And doing new things. And that's what I became known for. So one minute ⁓ I put a proposal forward that we needed to be in the network business ⁓ because a lot of that business was going to the channel. We were selling the PCs direct and the servers direct, but we weren't getting any of the network attached and all that stuff. So I set up a ⁓ business proposal to form a partnership with a distributor ⁓ where we would get in the network business. And and that became very successful. And then we started to then just absorb that into the mainstream business. Then when Dell ⁓ totally collapsed out of the laptop business because it was trying to compete with Jeshiba Compaq and IBM at the time, ⁓ we literally had to withdraw the products that we were producing because they were catching on fire in people's laps. ⁓ and literally Dell had no product for a period of time. And when it re-entered the market, it hired a guy called John Medica, who was the guy that pretty much invented the app the Apple ⁓ PowerBook. And he joined Dell and that's how the Latitude product came about. So anyone that's had a Dell Latitude brand, ⁓ I was there right at the beginning of the creation of Dell Latitude, and I ran the notebook business for Dell in the UK and took it from zero market share and bad reputation for going on fire to the number one, the number one brand in business within two and a half years. So that's that's what I got known for ⁓ at that time. Simon J Dudley (00:48:39) I mean, that's pretty deeply impressive. ⁓ Very rarely does a company survive the ⁓ products burn your lap ⁓ angle, ⁓ and then come back and become a market leader. What did you it's a long time ago now, but what did you do that made that so successful? What you know, there was because if for those of you who don't n now we live in a world where there's basically three and a half major PC brands treat Apple as completely separate. And obviously Dell is one of them, but at the time there were a lot of PC vendors, ⁓ hundreds. I could probably name you thirty off the top of my head. So what did you do differently than than anyone else that got you to be so successful there? Julian Phillips (00:49:15) yeah. Julian Phillips (00:49:25) And as I said, I've carried this forward throughout my whole career. So if you look at XTG, for example, XTG is a specialist business focused on experiential. And that is a lesson I learned back at Dell. If you want to get into a particular market and you want to do something that is different from the core of the business, you've got to separate it out of the core of the business because it will just get consumed with the everyday churn of we have to hit targets, we have to do this. And so You're trying to sell laptops when everyone's selling desktops and servers, they're not interested because it's it's not what they're e it's not easy to do. You have to start having conversations with customers about something that is different from them the core. And so I learned very early on that creating a specialist, and some people called it overlay, but I I call it much more of a of a startup ⁓ business that's focused on achieving growth. ⁓ and I learned how to do it at Dell. I did it later. Not only with laptops, I then did it with storage in exactly the same way inside ⁓ Dell as well. And I've carried that forward throughout my whole career. So I think that specialization and focus is really important. The other thing that I've learned through that is segmentation. ⁓ one of the things you will note is there are two predominant brands within Dell for laptop products that have survived. ⁓ well, it's actually three, but two that most people will know. One of them is XPS. which was always the dimension or XPS, which was the consumer and small business brand, and latitude, which was the enterprise corporate brand. ⁓ Both products had very different attributes and different values. And it was really important that segmenting your market and segmenting your value prop for each of those markets is really important as well. So if we try to take the XPS product and try to compete with compact Toshiba and IBM in the corporate space, we ought to fail. We had to have a platform, which is latitude what it it what it was. Wasn't a product play, it was a platform play. In other words, if you invested in latitude, we would give you the same docking station, the same batteries, the same swappability, the consistency, the boring things that enterprises actually invest in while everyone else was trying to compete on features and the latest ⁓ C D ROM drive or whatever it was. That strategy succeeded. ⁓ and and again Julian Phillips (00:51:49) Getting that focus, getting that segmentation, again, things I've taken with me throughout Simon J Dudley (00:51:55) Yeah, it's really interesting. We're living in a in a similar world in the world I've come out of, the video space, where all the products look awfully similar. ⁓ it's the the details that make the difference between a successful product and an unsuccessful one. It it's also interesting to me, do you think that's also what HP and ⁓ Lenovo did as well? Because the the three those three companies clearly dominate the PC market today. ⁓ particularly in laptops and particularly in the corporate space, do you think that's what they they did that the others didn't? I mean, you know, you think of the people like Amstrad or Gateway or Compaq or, you know, a million other brands out there. They didn't seem to achieve that. They they were more interested in the speeds and feeds rather than the let's talk about the lifetime experience here. Julian Phillips (00:52:47) Yeah, and I and I think, you know, the lesson from that, it was a very well crafted strategy ⁓ about how we were going to take on the enterprise market. And it wasn't just what what is the product, what is the value prop. It was also who are the customers we're targeting. So ⁓ again, we literally ⁓ did it methodically. We went through every single enterprise customer that was a Dell customer that we were selling desktops to. And we had a strategy. it was actually ⁓ it was a strategy called RAD, which still exists today, and it was refined, it was originated and refined by Dell. ⁓ and RAD is very simple. It's called retain, acquire, develop. And it was a strategy where we looked at our customers as which are the ones we want to acquire, which are the ones we need to develop, and which are the ones we need to retain. But within that overarching strategy was a substrategy of how we were going to do that for laptops, how we were going to do that for servers, how we were going to do that for storage. And so ⁓ being very data driven, which it was, enabled us to actually get the focus that it wasn't just reacting to sales opportunity. It was a very proactive approach to say what are we going to do to look at our best customers here, where we may have 70% penetration for desktop, for example. That was already in a In a retain strategy. In other words, we were defending against other people trying to take market share from that 70%. But when we looked at our laptop, it was a five percent. So therefore, for the same customer, we actually had two different strategies. One was a retain on the desktop estate, the other was an acquire for our laptops and our mobility and other things. And so again, Data helps you to develop a strategy, but it's the execution of that strategy and how you do that that's really important. Now I could take that analogy ⁓ and I could put it right into the enterprise space for AV and UCC and everything else right now in exactly the same way. And although the nuance of the of the market and the technology is different, I think the principles are still very much the same. Simon J Dudley (00:54:58) Yeah, I I must say I agree, but but that doesn't matter 'cause it's your story today, not mine. Okay, so you did ten years at Dell? Julian Phillips (00:55:07) Yep. ⁓ pretty much. And then ⁓ a little event happened ⁓ which is is coming up for a ⁓ An event that we should all remember ⁓ in a couple of days' time, three days' time, which is 9-11. ⁓ but this was the actual 9-11. ⁓ And ⁓ I had already decided ⁓ I needed to move on from Dell, partly because ⁓ having been made a Dellionaire through the co constant stock splits and all the other things that actually went on, which was another ⁓ interesting story, which I won't tell. ⁓ I realized that the stock was sort of plateauing, it wasn't going anywhere. I my stock growth wasn't actually and I thought, ooh, I ⁓ this is an endless game of possibility at the at the time. I need to go and do something else. ⁓ and then events sort of happened around that. So I'd already decided I was going to leave and I I'd already had a job offer to go and start up a what we would call today a AI startup but was effectively a dot com startup then ⁓ from an American company ⁓ and I was going to be employee number one in Europe and then start the whole entity there. And of course I thought I was king of the hill at this moment in time. You know, look at me, I can achieve anything. ⁓ so they made a verbal offer, which was great, and I was ⁓ I was becoming quite happy with the decision I made to leave Dell. ⁓ and then 9-11 happened. ⁓ I didn't hear from them for six weeks. They literally ran for the hills, California and company ran for the hills, ⁓ didn't even get I despite the fact I was trying to contact them, I got ⁓ and I sort of understood the situation. I knew that I was gonna, you know, stay out of it for a while, but it was a point of okay, are we doing this? And they basically said, No, no, no, we've changed all our plans. ⁓ Europe and global expansion, we can't do that. The world is a really dangerous, horrible place. Julian Phillips (00:57:13) So I was like, shit, what am I gonna do now? So ⁓ that's when I started at Orange. ⁓ So very iconic ⁓ British brand, I should say, at the time, ⁓ one of the most recognized ⁓ high value brands in the UK at the time. ⁓ and I and I was head of ⁓ Wireless Solutions at Orange. So again, ⁓ being who kind of person I am, I wasn't gonna sell mobile phones, I was gonna focus on the data solutions business, the wireless data solutions. ⁓ So I was at Orange for a while. I actually ⁓ helped launch the very first fully multimedia smartphone way before the Apple iPhone. ⁓ called the Orange S P V, if you can remember that from your days in the UK. Simon J Dudley (00:58:04) Okay. And this was ⁓ this was in an era when three G was just coming out, right? So data was finally gonna be a thing on a cell phone that wasn't simply text messages, correct? Julian Phillips (00:58:16) Three G was effectively why we were launching the product, because three G was the platform that was effectively going to power this this platform moving forward. ⁓ And for those of you not familiar with who the early players were in smartphones, guess what the operating system was? Simon J Dudley (00:58:34) I don't remember actually of those. ⁓ Julian Phillips (00:58:38) It was Microsoft. Simon J Dudley (00:58:41) was this Windows C E? ⁓ Julian Phillips (00:58:43) Windows CE. That was the that was the the operating system that was powering the fur what was recognized as being the first fully multimedia that's what SPV stood for, sounds, pictures, video. ⁓ and that was that was the very first one. So that's what I did at Orange. ⁓ And then the French bought Orange, ⁓ and ⁓ that became less fun, ⁓ and I had to get on the Eurostar and go to Paris every week. ⁓ and I suddenly realized that ⁓ Orange as a French brand was not the same as Orange as a British brand. Anyway, so that's ⁓ that's what finished, and then I moved into ⁓ dot com. ⁓ I went and joined a dot com business that was ⁓ taking about some of my recruitment background, which was creating lots of ⁓ online recruitment brands, ⁓ buying lots of companies. Aggregating them. ⁓ and then it was it was basically a dot-com aggregation ⁓ MA plan that eventually led to a sellout ⁓ of the company to Trinity Mirror, which was ⁓ the big newspaper brand in the UK at the time, the the biggest by revenue, I believe. ⁓ And so we sold the company to Trinity Mirror, and one of the companies that I had led the acquisition and the and the integration of was a a software company called People Bank. And People Bank was an online application tracking platform. It was a a software platform. So if you've used something like Monster or you've used other ⁓ online ATS brands or what have you that exist ⁓ today then this was an early example of that called People Bank. Still exists by the way, funny enough. ⁓ so I led that As an employee of Trinity Mirror, I never thought I would end up working for a newspaper. So yeah. Let's not go there. ⁓ and let's leave. ⁓ but it was ⁓ shoot, who's the who was the editor at the time that is a TV personality now? Piers Morgan. So Piers Morgan was the editor at the time. So I did actually meet Piers Morgan once. ⁓ Simon J Dudley (01:00:45) And that was Robert Maxwell, right? Trinity Mirror. No, let let's leave him and his daughter alone. Simon J Dudley (01:01:01) Here's Morgan. Julian Phillips (01:01:09) So that was what I did, and then ⁓ they decided they didn't want to own ⁓ that, so I actually led the sale of that company ⁓ to a Russian company. ⁓ anyway, that's an aside. ⁓ anyway, so there I was having sold this software company and no longer an employee of Trinity Mirror, thinking, what am I gonna do now? And this is when I got the phone call. This is when I got the phone call. ⁓ which was how would you like to run an A V company? ⁓ And I was, ⁓ what's A V? I had absolutely no idea what it was. ⁓ and then the headhunter explained it to me. ⁓ And I still didn't even know what it was. It's funny if you actually say what is A V and someone explains it to you and you still don't have a clue. I d I didn't actually realise there was an industry that did this. I sort of knew this stuff existed because I used it, you know, but Simon J Dudley (01:01:59) Yeah. Julian Phillips (01:02:07) I didn't realise there was a whole industry that that ended up doing it. So this was a company in the UK called Impact Marcom. ⁓ and ⁓ I said no initially, ⁓ and then it was ⁓ 'cause it was like I just don't get it and and it was in a pretty bad state anyway. So it was like I'm gonna go and do something in an industry I don't understand, in a company that's virtually bankrupt. ⁓ and ⁓ Not an unfamiliar story in the heavy industry. ⁓ And ⁓ and I was Just started to watch YouTube. I and YouTube was only just around then. ⁓ And and I thought, do you know what? There's something in this video thing. If the the whole world is actually gonna be consuming all this content on video, someone's got to make this video and someone's got to distribute this video. So if it's audio visual, then maybe there's something in this. And so I did a bit more research and ⁓ and I ended up becoming managing director of Impact Marcom. Now for those not familiar Simon J Dudley (01:02:47) I ⁓ do a second guess. ⁓ Simon J Dudley (01:03:12) It seven. ⁓ Julian Phillips (01:03:15) It is now what is known as Kinley, which is now known as ⁓ Kinley Yorktale, or I think it's still the Kinley brand, isn't it? Aren't they just using Yeah. Simon J Dudley (01:03:24) I think it's the c I I've lost track. And Kinley bought a bunch of companies because they started in Scandinavia, did they not? ⁓ Just just just let's anchor this, Julian. What year are we talking about here? Julian Phillips (01:03:31) Yeah, indeed, indeed. So but Julian Phillips (01:03:38) I joined in two thousand and seven. Simon J Dudley (01:03:42) Right. Julian Phillips (01:03:44) So that is ⁓ the right beginning of twenty two thousand and seven. ⁓ and so it was still Impact Marcom, it was part of Impact Europe, which was a a group of Scandinavian, again, Scandinavian integrators. ⁓ and my job was to turn it around ⁓ and get it profitable, which we did. ⁓ and a whole bunch of other things. But bearing in mind, I joined in 2007. Now, for those who now remember what happened in 2008. So we Lehman Brothers, the the Great Depression, the Great Crash. For those not familiar, there was a bigger crash that happened a lot, you know, 20 odd years ago. ⁓ so we were really fighting it. We we had to rescue ⁓ our banking relationship from the day one. As soon as we got onto an even keel, then Lehman Brothers, you know. So you had to learn how to fight your way through all of this kind of stuff. When I was there, ⁓ within a year, I realized that I had these global customers. Who I was ⁓ not they wanted me to deliver services for them ⁓ in outside of ⁓ the UK, but I hadn't I had no ability to invest in ⁓ global expansion. So I came up with this idea, and this idea was based off the ⁓ the Star Alliance for Airlines. was the what if we could actually create an alliance organization that with other integrators that could Do this. So that's how GPA came about. So the Global Presence Alliance. So ⁓ I went over to the US. ⁓ Randy Klein very kindly introduced me to Whitlock. ⁓ And that is how GPA started. ⁓ And so that's a long time ago. And obviously GPA's been in the news recently as well. ⁓ And so that's that's what happened then. Then ⁓ shareholders, God, this is a long, boring story, isn't it? Probably everyone's thinking, God, is when's he gonna shut up? ⁓ but ⁓ what then happened was the shareholders in Scandinavia decided they want to sell the company. They didn't tell me ⁓ they were gonna do it. So I found out, picked up the phone to ⁓ Doug Hall, who is the CEO at Whitlock, and said, Do you wanna buy the company 'cause it's up for sale, or do you want to buy me? And he said, I'll buy you. So that is how I came to the US. Simon J Dudley (01:05:47) Okay. Julian Phillips (01:06:08) and literally ⁓ sixteen years ago. So my journey ⁓ is ⁓ to the US sixteen years ago, ten years at Whitlock, obviously the merger, Whitlock, AVI SPL, and now six years at AVI SPL. So there you go. The whole story of my career. Simon J Dudley (01:06:29) Th there you go. ⁓ very i very interesting. So th okay, there are a million questions in here. ⁓ talk us through because not many people get to do this. Whitlock was a very large company. ⁓ I forget hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue. You ⁓ Julian Phillips (01:06:49) Three hundred and fifty million on on merger, yeah. Simon J Dudley (01:06:53) Right. And and ⁓ and AVI SPL what, close to a billion at the time? Julian Phillips (01:06:58) Nine ⁓ nine hundred and fifty. So when the merger happened it was a one point three ⁓ billion dollar merger, yeah. Simon J Dudley (01:07:05) Now, when two companies merge, there's always a I I'm interested to hear about the cultural changes and how one navigates that. Because I think many of us either do or fear that that's gonna happen to one of our companies when we're working for them. So how does that change? Because you would have had a lot of overlap between the two companies, but also lots of differences. So how does that operate? for both sides? Do you find and also I should point out for the for the audience that ⁓ the buying company was only three times little less than three times the size of Whitlock. So it was not ⁓ just we swallow you. It wasn't like Cisco buying a hundred million dollar company. This was a big integration. How do you ⁓ navigate that? And how did you navigate it? And how would if people find themselves in that position, what's the best What's the best thing to do? Is it best to stick your hand up and have loads of ideas, or is it best to keep your head down and wait for the dust to settle? I mean, I suspect I know which one you did, but can most people do the put the hand up? Julian Phillips (01:08:16) Well do bear in mind that a year before the merger happened, ⁓ I did a an article or an interview with Commercial Integrator magazine where ⁓ I had the opportunity to do something I'd always wanted to do, ⁓ which at a at a period of time when I was at Dell, ⁓ they loved what they called two in a box. In other words, they gave you two jobs for the price of one. And so for a period I wasn't only just running at the time I was running what was called Dell e Business. So it was actually the dot com. So I was running all the infrastructure for selling to companies building websites and and the dot com. So I had that as my day job. And my second job was running marketing communications at the time. And I had to organize an event for Michael Dell to come over to ⁓ the UK. ⁓ and we we had a ⁓ a press briefing. And at what one point one of the journalists actually said to Michael, I understand that IBM's PC business is up for sale. ⁓ are you gonna buy it? And there was a long pause. ⁓ and he said, Ladies and gentlemen of the press, I am going to acquire ⁓ IBM's PC business. And then there was another long pause. ⁓ One customer at a time. ⁓ And Simon J Dudley (01:09:35) Oooooh, what a good line. Julian Phillips (01:09:37) When I heard that, I thought one day, ⁓ one day if I have the opportunity to do that, I am going to take that opportunity. And it just so happened, Tom LeBlanc, ⁓ commercial integrator, asked me questions about ⁓ Whitlock's acquisition strategy. ⁓ because he said AVI SPL are diversified, they're buying lots of companies. What's Whitlock's strategy? And I had a long pause and I said, Well, Tom, I can tell you that Whitlock's strategy is we are going to acquire AVI SPL. ⁓ One customer at a time. Now, of course, not only did this a appear as a headline, which rather upset a whole bunch of people, I was reminded of it on the first day that the merger actually took place, ⁓ that I was the guy that was going to acquire ⁓ AVI SPL and we were being acquired and merged. So you can just imagine my landing in in in that respect. Now, it is it ⁓ Simon J Dudley (01:10:34) Yeah. Julian Phillips (01:10:35) It is a course of great amusement and continuous amusement inside AVISPL, that particular event, by the way. ⁓ technically, just for the record, it's exactly what happened. Because we had just sold ⁓ Whitlock to ⁓ Marlin Private Equity, so the private equity partners, ⁓ and we were already owned by Marlin ⁓ Equity when they chose to buy AVI SPL. So I suppose you could technically That we did buy them in the end, but never mind. ⁓ The ⁓ irony was not lost. So, ⁓ first of all, I had to overcome that. I was not the most popular person in the room. ⁓ The second thing was ⁓ the realization that if I was going to bring any value to ⁓ the new AVISPL, I had to be doing something that didn't already exist. ⁓ And ⁓ because ⁓ you know there's loads of other people doing normal stuff. And I wasn't gonna hang around to do normal stuff anyway. So that's where XTG came from. Now, the the truth is we'd already begun ⁓ figuring out how to do experiential at Whitlock. So we already had ⁓ a small business focused on that that was being very successful, but it was still small. It didn't scale. ⁓ and becoming part of the bigger company gave us the opportunity to look at everything else the company was doing. do some streamlining and then create this new thing that was going to focus on that. And then it's just, you know, grown exponentially from that point. So ⁓ so I think the the lesson I would give and ⁓ I would share for anybody that finds themselves in that ⁓ merged opportunity and maybe they are the the one being merged as opposed to the the merger is first of all, understand and protect your own value. Look for opportunities to bring value that doesn't currently exist and then be ruthless. about how you execute that. ⁓ and ⁓ and if you can get away with that in that environment then great. If you can't, get out and do something. Simon J Dudley (01:12:40) Interesting. Now we're living in a world ⁓ I wasn't gonna go in this direction, but I think it's worth exploring a bit, where a lot of companies in the in the A V space. I think probably true in other parts of the economy as well, but let's talk about the A V space, ⁓ are gobbling each other up. ⁓ the the GPA as a good example is moving from ⁓ one player to another because every company it appears that takes home on the GPA as a partnership decides it wants to do it itself later. or has done so far. Do you think that's going to continue? ⁓ and i is there a particular advantage for customers or ⁓ or I suppose ultimately, why are companies doing this ⁓ MA rather than you know ⁓ organic growth in this space? Julian Phillips (01:13:31) Well, I think I think the algorithm is changing, ⁓ and I think it's important to recognize ⁓ more of a case of what are you actually consolidating for before you you venture into consolidating. It it used to be that the algorithm was quite simple. In other words, if you have lots of companies that all do the same thing, ⁓ then the consolidation is a straightforward piece of math. You just work out that if you merge their customer base and their revenue base and the you to get streamlined ⁓ costs ⁓ the back office, then the the eBIT output you will actually get as a consolidation of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. That was the general principle under which consolidation takes place. I don't believe that algorithm works in the same way now. And so you have to be very clear about what are you consolidating for. ⁓ and so just doing it for scale ⁓ and just doing the sum of the parts, ⁓ you I I don't think you can necessarily be successful with that. And I have a I have an old adage, ⁓ and I still hold this to be true, even though it's probably not, is that if you're gonna buy something, just remember that one plus one does not equal two. ⁓ One plus one usually equals one. ⁓ And Therefore, the supposed ⁓ revenue that you're absorbing, the supposed customers and what have you, you could have probably achieved that anyway. It comes back to I will buy, acquire you one customer at a time. If all you're going to do is just buy existing contracts and existing revenues and what have you, and think that you're getting strategic advantage, think again. So what you have to do is actually look at the other factors that play. What strategically is going is going to happen as a direct result of you acquiring. Simon J Dudley (01:15:06) Mm-hmm. Julian Phillips (01:15:22) Are you actually going to get into a market that you that the cost of or the barriers to entry into that particular market are so high that the only practical way you can do it is through acquisition? And as a direct result of that, you now have a proposition that you can offer your global customers that they are wanting and that they're prepared to pay for. And so you have to be very strategic about anything that's geographic. And you have to make sure that you really know that the customers that are most valuable to you that are going to fuel your growth moving forward will come and move their business to you. You can't be guaranteed that, of course, but you have to be clear that that strategic advantage gives you something that your competition either doesn't have or you can do it more effectively. I think there's another dynamic in MA right now, and that is more to do with what are you actually going to do with your customers now? Because If you're as an A V integrator, if you think that the sum of your value is going to be just selling A V and trying to sell as much A V to a customer as possible, think again. ⁓ Because ⁓ the single play, I think, has is ⁓ is on its way out. ⁓ apart from very niche players. So I I used to use this phrase for a long time ⁓ on stage. get big, get niche or get out. ⁓ and that was the advice to A V integrators. In other words, if you want to play in the large enterprise global space, you've got to get big, you've got to scale, right? If you want to be niche, ⁓ in other words in a particular geography or a particular vertical or a particular kind of technology, be really good at getting niche. ⁓ and dominate that particular space, whether it's a geography or if if you're Really good at digital signage, be really good at digital signage, but don't try and necessarily do everything else. ⁓ and if you can't figure out ⁓ one or the either, don't sit around in the middle still trying to figure it out. Get the hell out before any value you have in your organization is is eroded. And I still hold that to be true, by the way. So I think partly what's driving the and A activity is the get big thing. There are a number of players that are realizing Julian Phillips (01:17:34) That strategically they not only have to have geographic coverage, but they have to go broad and wide into the value that they're offering their customers. So A V is no longer good enough. You have to be a UC player. ⁓ UC play on its own, no longer good enough. You have to now figure out digital signage and a digital media. ⁓ services, you have to be a strong services play. And those services have to be integrated into everything else you have. experiential. I mean ex experiential is now a core part of our value play at A VISPL. It it wasn't five years ago, but it's now a central plank of what we do as well as A V, as well as UCC, as well as services, as well as now DWX, which is our new venture into digital workplace experience, which is now integrating the building into the fabric of service delivery through IT, UCC and the whole thing, and security. So ⁓ that is where I see the and A activity that we will increasingly see it ⁓ geographically because large enterprise customers want scale. But I think you'll also see it through the different layers of value that you can actually create and how you can become a broader and deeper value play in the Simon J Dudley (01:18:51) It's interesting. It's really that's a fascinating answer. ⁓ So let's use DWX as an example. Would that move you ⁓ into competing with the likes of CBRE or JLL or those sorts of ⁓ building management organizations? Or would you partner with them? And I only use them as an example because as you move into different markets, then you have different competition. ⁓ they may not be competitors you understand yet because you haven't competed with them previously. So how do you cope with that? Julian Phillips (01:19:27) I'll let you into a little secret. It's not much of a secret, but I might as well just reveal it. ⁓ XTG not only is responsible for our experiential solutions that we sell around the world, we're also responsible for the partnerships we have with CBRE, JLL, Cushman and Wakefield, Colliers, and Newmark. ⁓ why? This is why is that the case? Our business model ⁓ at XTG is designed differently from the core business model at the rest of the company because we are operating two, three years out before anyone gets paid. The way you get into these large-scale transformational projects is you have to be building and creating value early in the sales cycle before there's even a sales cycle, quite frankly. This is effectively classical business development. And so one of the ways you do that, especially for something like DWX, is you have to figure out who are the people having these conversations or needing to help organizations transform. Guess what? It's the it's the strategy leaders of workplace in the large enterprises, and it's likely 70, 80% of their business they outsource to someone like a JLL or a C B R E to actually do the work. Increasingly, the corporate real estate guys are trying to present new unique value to their clients because the old model of proving their value is sort of eroded a little bit. ⁓ and they want to take new ideas and things. So we now partner with them on taking those new ideas early. ⁓ early is really important. You cannot do fundamentally different kinds of work, whether it's experiential or whether it's workplace transformation, if you're not early enough in the cycle to have influence over what gets designed, how it gets designed, who gets to play and who gets to make decisions early. So an important part of the strategy for XTG was always that long term business development cycle, which is why we had to have the corporate real estate community and also the architectural community and the the other community as part of our Julian Phillips (01:21:28) our ecosystem. Simon J Dudley (01:21:30) And and that's also an ex ⁓ an example of why being part of something bigger matters, because if you were an independent small organization, relatively small organization, not making any revenue for two or three years can have some fairly detrimental effects on the business. So if you've got the opportunity to actually think long term, I I at the turn of the millennium I was working for Polycom and I remember talking to the managing director for Europe. And I said, if we do this deal now at the end of the quarter, it will ruin our business next quarter. Or we can wait and do a better business next quarter. And he said, if you wait, your replacement will thank you. And I realized that a a lot of companies that are that have these very short-term mindsets end up blowing themselves up long term. Polycom didn't, it did fine, right? But it was an example of doing the thing the good thing long term has short term effects and a lot of people don't seem to understand or or I I guess they just don't have the headroom to be able to do what you've done with XCG because they simply don't have the run rate or the the runway perhaps to get the thing off the off the ground. Julian Phillips (01:22:45) And I've been very fortunate to be in an environment with the the leadership support that understands the need to ⁓ enable us to have a different business model ⁓ with a long term development cycle that ran concurrently with the core business that operated in a different speed and a different function. So it the both both things can be true at the same time. ⁓ when you're in a discussion of either or, that's when you sort of get into a bit of a trouble because you could spend all of your time trying to farm and and and react to immediate opportunity, but not build a long-term pipeline. ⁓ but if you can do both at the same time and keep them in balance, which we've tried to do pretty effectively, I mean XTG produces hundreds of millions of dollars every year now. You know, ⁓ and that is a direct result of the investment we made early that is now feeding its way into the sales cycle ⁓ for the rest of the business. And so, you know, we wouldn't have been able to be what I believe we're the market leaders and experiential if we hadn't had that business model and invested early in that cycle. Simon J Dudley (01:23:47) Yes. ⁓ Yes. ⁓ And does this allow you to do global s scenarios as well, or just within certain markets? Julian Phillips (01:23:54) We we do it all round the world. I mean, you know, some of the most iconic projects we're doing are in the Middle East, where there is an insatia insatiable at appetite for doing experiential type work. So ⁓ it's ⁓ part of the benefit, and you know, it's it's true, part of the benefit is that we are global and we have scale, but we can deploy X T G at scale in exactly the same way. So if I if I were just a specialized I only have sixty-three people in XTG. So I couldn't compete globally with sixty-three people with everything I'm trying to do every year without the rest of the organization as the as if you like the foundation, the fabric and the ⁓ the organizational weight that enables me to compete globally. ⁓ so it is a sort of best of the both worlds really. Simon J Dudley (01:24:44) Hmm. Interesting model. So it'll be interesting to see that this is the the A V space feels to me a bit like the trucking industry in the sense that the trucking industry looks like it's actually really consolidated, but actually it's not. ⁓ Nobody has a very high market share. ⁓ it feels like I mean, even even AVI SBL, the biggest player in the market, in percentage terms, is not a large player of the entire market. There's still It's still thousands of little companies all with their tiny bit of slice. It'll be interesting to see if that changes over the next five to ten years. I suspect it probably will, but I also suspect there will always be lots of smaller players. Julian Phillips (01:25:25) There will be. ⁓ I think the latest data I saw ⁓ indicates that we may occupy occupy between two to three percent of the global corporate spend for A V integration. ⁓ I don't know whether the data is a little bit scarce in the AV industry, so I don't know whether to necessarily believe that. But I I believe it's in the single figures. ⁓ and so, you know, when you say where's your upside, well there's your upside, you know, you still have ninety seven percent to go. Fascinating you should mention trucking actually because ⁓ just while I slide this one in and get into the AI conversation, we are the first ⁓ not only AV integrator but technology integrator to have delivered products to our corporate customers via autonomous vehicles, by an autonomous truck. So we now have through Jeremy Cotteroli, who leads our global supply chain logistics, formed a partnership with Volvo. ⁓ trucking to now start experimenting with completely wireless trucking, which ⁓ go just goes to show. The other thing you have to do ⁓ in this market is innovate not just at the front end and at the sales end, you have to intr i innovate in the back end and back office. because doing A V integration as we have known it is a very complicated, messy business. It is also very cost ⁓ burdened ⁓ and you always have to be looking at innovating as much in the back office operations as you are in the front office ⁓ side. Simon J Dudley (01:26:57) Yeah, having come out of manufacturers for the last twenty seven years, I've worked for some big companies, some of which are big bigger revenue perhaps than than ⁓ ABISPL have done. But we only have a finite amount of products and we make them all. And therefore, in some respects, I mean sure there's the you've got to build these things, which is hard, but the logistics ⁓ is ⁓ is at least of a of a defined quantity. As an integrator, you've got the Okie Kokey Mark Seven from here and the display from there and the codec from these people and and doing that, ⁓ your logistics people are deeply impressive, as are everyone who does this at scale in the industry. It's a it's a hell of a job. Julian Phillips (01:27:39) Well in normal circumstances it's a hell of a job. But just imagine trying to do that when you have tariffs that change every week. ⁓ that supply chains that are literally up and down ⁓ in real time. So ⁓ Jeremy, who's not only done autonomous trucking, who's now experimenting with drones, is also ⁓ developed AI agents that do calculating tariffs and actually ⁓ can give Complete document documented proof to a customer of why we have to charge them certain tariffs for certain origins and all this kind of stuff. In the same way he's done that with ⁓ shipping, ⁓ trying to find least cost because of the cost of shipping now because of the cost of oil, ⁓ now becomes a real cost burden to the business. So we have to find least cost routing and a whole range of sophisticated ways that we can get product around. ⁓ This is ⁓ it sounds like innovation to an extent, but to To be honest, it's more like table stakes now. If you're not doing this kind of thing, you can rapidly find yourself at a cost disadvantage and a market disadvantage. So this constant pursuit for innovation and change ⁓ is is has to be the in the lifeblood of the organisation. Simon J Dudley (01:28:53) So I want to change gears a bit on you. There's three topics that I want to talk about. Your writing, because I know that's something you've been doing a lot of over the last couple of years and are continued to do. Your interest in AI, ⁓ which is one of the things you write about ex extensively, ⁓ and your work with some of the organizations bringing up the next generation of individuals. ⁓ and and I guess a fourth one would be. Julian Phillips (01:29:00) Mm-hmm. Simon J Dudley (01:29:21) You have been associated with Avixa for very many years, ⁓ and you went through a cycle as do others that we all some of us know. And I'd be interested to to get maybe an overview as to that. I don't mind where we start or or where you finish on that. W what what what topics do you want to first? Julian Phillips (01:29:37) Well it Well let's do a Vixa 'cause it's the most A V thing. I mean, ⁓ I ⁓ when I was first asked ⁓ to be involved in Avixa, ⁓ it was still called Infocom. ⁓ And ⁓ and I ⁓ associated Infocom the Association with Infocom the Show. I didn't know anything else. And quite frankly, at the time, most people didn't even know what that there was an association, they just thought it was a show. And that was actually part of the brand problem they had. ⁓ so I didn't see any value in being part of this association. I was like, what do they do? ⁓ And I still couldn't figure it out after a while. ⁓ but they wanted me to be involved because they heard me talk somewhere and thought I was smart, but ⁓ how deluded they were. ⁓ and I was asked, but I was asked to be on an election slate, ⁓ and I went up for election, I didn't get elected. Funny that, isn't it? Because, you know, ⁓ at the time I went, okay, well if I'm not gonna get elected, then ⁓ what the hell? And they insisted that I carry on and and I and I knew at the time that you could be elected or you could get appointed. And I thought, well, maybe they'll appoint me and I don't have to do an election. They said, ⁓ Julian, we'd like you to be part of it, but we're gonna put you on another slate. So you're gonna go through an election again. And this was just at the time I'd just come to the States. Only been there a little while. And they put me on a slate ⁓ next to ⁓ somebody who was working at Av ISPL. Julian Phillips (01:31:12) as their global sales leader, ⁓ who you can work out who it is, who ⁓ at the time I was thinking, well, there's no way I'm gonna win that one. No one knows who I am, and this guy knows everybody and what have you. So I I wrote it off at the time, and funny enough I got elected. And that's how I started. So that's how the journey started. And so what I would say to anybody that's interested or at the early stages of their engagement with a Vixa, ⁓ get stuck in, ⁓ don't Take rejection to heart. It's just part of a process. ⁓ if you are still interested in your bringing value, at some point you will find your way into whatever ⁓ role, because there's many roles, it's not just on the board. ⁓ but you have to treat it as the long game. So my long game was seven years on the board, including a year as chair. ⁓ even though I refuse to be called a chair, so they wrote a bylaw. on my request of self-determination, that whoever took the post could choose to be to be known by how they choose to be known. So I chose to be known as chairman. ⁓ and anyone else could be chair or chairperson or chairwoman. It's up to them. Self-determination. I thought that's fair enough. Funny enough, when I did retire from the board, they gave me one of those little silver plaques. ⁓ that you see on a Avixa board members when they walk around Infocom and actually said rocking chair on it. So that was that Simon J Dudley (01:32:43) ⁓ That's great. ⁓ Julian Phillips (01:32:46) A a last final gift, you know, there you go. For you for making such a point about it. We'll make a point back. So that was ⁓ that was the end of my but I learnt a lot and I made some lifelong friends and ⁓ and I ⁓ thoroughly enjoyed my time working in Avixa. And I I would say ⁓ not for the status, not for anything other than the fact that you'll meet some amazing people and and ⁓ be part of creating something and you know when I was there probably ⁓ if there was one big big thing I did it was the rebranding to Avixa. So I was actually part of a team that ⁓ worked with the strategy agency and what have you on figuring out what Avixa eventually would become. Now the the ⁓ the reverse of all of that was that when we created the Audio Visual and Integrated Experience Association, a lot of people don't actually know that's what Avixa stands for. ⁓ and looked at the methodology of how we got to what is an integrated experience. It literally was how do you take space, content and technology and create a an exceptional experience? And I thought at the time, wouldn't it be cool if I could actually create a business that did that? And that's what I did with X D G. So there you go. So that's the ⁓ that's the story. Simon J Dudley (01:34:02) A small aside, ⁓ I will say I think Julian is perhaps the best salesperson I've ever met for a Vixa. ⁓ I was having a particularly bad week, month, year at my employer at the time. And I was at the traffic lights just outside the FIRA at ISE in ⁓ Spain, you know, in Barcelona, and Julian walked up to me and said, How am I doing? And I told him, and ⁓ he and I he you said to me. I don't even know if you remember the conversation, but you said to me, Why are you so down at heel about the show? And I gave you a laundry list of things I was depr de ⁓ not necessarily depressed, but frustrated by. And in five minutes as we waited for the crossing and crossed the road, you gave me the best sales pitch I've ever heard for a trade show and I walked the other side of it with a bit more of a spring in my step. So I don't even know if you remember that conversation, but it was important. Julian Phillips (01:35:00) I do. I do remember it. ⁓ And ⁓ and and I can visualize exactly where you were and how we walked across the road having that conversation towards the fur. Yeah. Simon J Dudley (01:35:09) And I felt better for it. It's ⁓ I think one of the things, and perhaps this will move on to our next topic, which is what you're doing for for developing the next generation of folks, is as I look back on my career as it has been so far, and I've been in this industry for thirty something years, ⁓ at the time you can get very caught up with the technology, but in hindsight, once you look back, you realise it's the people that mattered. You can always worry about a new technology and you have to deal with it, but it's the people that really ⁓ make it interesting. ⁓ and and that perhaps segues nicely into what are you you're doing some interesting work with developing the next generation. And in my tiny little way, that's what I hope this is partly about to help people understand how do you get to where Julian. or Graham or Ilya or any of these great folks have got to in their careers, how did you start and how did you walk through it? That's what this is about. So what what are you doing in the development of people? Where where's that? Julian Phillips (01:36:17) Just after ⁓ I left of VIXA, I was invited to join the board of ISC. So I didn't I was wasn't completely out. I spent two years on the board of ISE that does the ⁓ ISE show in Barcelona. And when I got to the end of that, I was thinking, right, I think I'm done with the A V associations now. I need to find something else to do. ⁓ and I got a call completely out of the blue. From this organization called the Future Talent Council. ⁓ and they said, ⁓ We ⁓ have heard about you and I'm like, How did you hear about me? ⁓ and we would like to invite you to be part of the Future Talent Council because we would like a voice like yours in what we're trying to do. And so I did some research. I they invited me to go out to their big event that they had in Stockholm. just conveniently because I have my eldest daughter and my grandchildren live in Stockholm, so that was handy. So ⁓ you know, combined a couple of activities there. ⁓ and ⁓ at the end of the couple of days in this summit, I met some incredible people from universities, from government, from ⁓ other corporations. ⁓ And the director general ⁓ the drinks party at the end of it I'd met him earlier in the show and he came up and he said, you know, we're really glad you could come. And, you know, if you want to be more involved, ⁓ we would love for you to be more involved. And I said, and I told him the story about Avixa. And I said, The problem is with this, Daniel, you've got to really be careful what you wish for. ⁓ Because if you say you want me to be involved, you're not gonna get a little bit of me, you're gonna get a lot of me. Okay. So if you are you ready for that? And he said, Absolutely. And so So I've spent the last two or three years with the FTC trying to do my best, if I possibly can do, to contribute in that world. That's where I'm headed next week. I'm doing a speech in Malta at a summit that's happening there. ⁓ and of course I am going to be talking about a lot of the themes that I write about and talk about, but in particular the messages for young people. ⁓ And we'll come back to that maybe at the end, because ⁓ I think there's a lot of anxiety. Julian Phillips (01:38:34) Around rightfully, there's a lot of anxiety around in the world. ⁓ that is that AI has picked up, if you like, the banner of anxiety that exists in the world right now. ⁓ and I'm I'm deeply concerned by that because I I think that a lot of people are using the AI banner for their own purposes ⁓ without fully understanding often ⁓ the ⁓ the understanding of what AI is in the context of what's happening in the world right now. Because AI is certainly a feature of what's happening in the world, but it's not probably the most important thing of what's happening in the world. What I believe is that we're we are leaving one era and we're entering a new one. And I often talk about the era of steam, the era of electricity and the era of ⁓ AI, as consequential as steam, electricity, and now AI. I do also believe that AI will probably be even more profoundly consequential. not only in what changes, but at the speed it will actually change. And so ⁓ that is why I've been ⁓ driven to writing ⁓ and talking and being involved in the FTC and other organisations, of which there are many more actually. ⁓ Because I think it's really important that if you if you are a storyteller, and I do believe that I am a bit of a storyteller, I think we need some storytellers right now who actually understand the topic, who are spending some time and effort and helping to translate what's going on and help to help people to navigate it in a way that is both useful and helpful, ⁓ but also ⁓ moving away from either the dystopian or the fantastical. And I think if you look at most of the dialogue that's happening right now, it it it occupies extremes. But then also Say, well, if the AI debate is occupying extremes, what else is going on in society that occupies extremes? Our politics occupies extremes. The way we talk about the economic situation occupies extremes. The way we have dialogue through social media occupies extremes. And this is why I talk about the uncertainty paradox ⁓ at the very beginning of the book intelligent humility. In times of great uncertainty, people tend to project the greatest certainty. Julian Phillips (01:40:54) And what that means is that the fear of the unknown, the fear that everything is changing. And rather than being exploring and experimenting and asking what if, they try to retreat to something that they once knew to be solid, ⁓ once ⁓ a retrospective view of the world as it was. This whole let's make it great again narrative. And it's not just in the US, it's happening in Europe, it's happening all around the world. Simon J Dudley (01:41:14) Yes. ⁓ Julian Phillips (01:41:23) So I think it's really important that yes, I talk about AI and I I I'm passionate about what the potential of what AI can do without being fantastical, but I also think it's important we tell the story of why we are where we are, where we've come from, and help people to navigate where we go. Simon J Dudley (01:41:42) I think that's an excellent way of putting it. And I totally agree with you, by the way, that one of the things that the the future is always terrifying because the future is unknown. The past, one you can whitewash it, and people do, ⁓ making things great again as a good example. Well, you know, what year? Because you wouldn't want to be a woman before 1970 because you couldn't get a bank account in America. You certainly wouldn't want to be ⁓ an ethnic minority before ⁓ the Civil Rights Act. So you wouldn't want to not be a land-owning man before about 1900 because you wouldn't get the vote. So, you know, when did it's always this mythical past? Even Chaucer harped back in the 12th century, he wrote and talked about a mythical past where things were better. And he was writing that 800 years ago. So I think that it's in the human condition to think of the past as better than the future, because of course we all survived the past, where we don't know if we're going to survive the future. Julian Phillips (01:42:48) One of the narratives at the moment that's going around is ⁓ taxation. Very few people seem to remember that the highest rate of taxation in the United States for a very long period of time was up to ninety-seven percent. You know, ⁓ going back to the sixties and seventies and saying, well, that this was the greatest era of emancipation of of ⁓ of the American dream, you want to go back to ninety-seven percent highest highest rate of tax, really? Simon J Dudley (01:43:01) Yes. Julian Phillips (01:43:16) ⁓ so I I think anyway, that's a that's another discussion. But here's the thing. ⁓ If we are to understand the future that is happening in an uncertain world, an unpredictable world, which I believe also to be true, I think we're leaving an era of relative ⁓ certainty and predictability, and we are going to be in a constant state of uncertainty and unpredictability. I even have a law that I have created called Phillips Law. I one day thought if Moore can ⁓ Gordon Moore can have a law than I can have a law too. So Phillips Law, which basically says that i when connectivity, complexity, and intelligence increasingly converge, the frequency of unexpected transformative events accelerates while their consequences compound. In other words, the world is going to be in a constant state of uncertainty and unpredictability. Predictability and it's really difficult for even the smartest person with the greatest tools of an analysis to be able to predict how these consequences are going to compound on top of each other and what that means moving forward. Now the good news about compounding consequences in this law is it works both ways. It could be viewed as a negative, and you know I often use the Ukraine war as an example, as a direct result of something that was an unexpected transformative event five years ago. Warfare has changed forever. We now have an AI arms race, we now have a race for data centers, we now have a race for electricity supply, we now have anxiety over climate control, we now have rare earth minerals, we have ⁓ you name it, the these all consequences are compounding on top of each other. But that was a negative transformative event. Now think of a positive one. Let's flip the script. What if, ⁓ as could be possible, we find a vaccine for cancer? ⁓ it could be possible given ⁓ NRA vac ⁓ technology that it is together with AI. Just imagine the compounding consequences of something really positive like that happening at speed moving forward. So I think the narrative at the moment ⁓ is ⁓ if the world is going to be uncertain and the world is going to be unpredictable, let's put all of our effort and focus on trying to create the positive things that can actually happen and try and mitigate the risks of the negative ones. Julian Phillips (01:45:37) Because it could go one of two ways. And I think we are gonna live in an unpredictable world where we are gonna have to put up with greater, more substantial geopolitical shocks and changes and what have you, but we can also accelerate all the good positive things too. And that's part of what I really wanna focus my storytelling about. Simon J Dudley (01:45:58) I think that's an excellent answer. And the other thing for everyone to consider is no technology has ever got back in the bottle, right? Once a technology, the genie is out the bottle, it's out the bottle. You can wish that it was back in the bottle or that the bottle didn't exist. It's irrelevant. If it's available, people will use it. And therefore, we all as a society need to work out how to use it, or else if we don't, we get left behind. And I think a lot of people forget that or or just simply wish it not to be true. ⁓ And that's clearly not gonna happen Julian Phillips (01:46:34) But let me let me talk about ⁓ one aspect because ⁓ every single book that I've written ⁓ is is more about humans than it is about AI. And there's a reason why it is, because I think ⁓ let's reflect on the previous era of ⁓ technology transformation, electricity. And by the way, I I still count computing and everything that we've done in the last you know 50, 60 years is still the age of electricity, and there's a reason why that is. Because although these have been amazing technologies, they've actually been amazing technologies in the context of what is a linear age. ⁓ And ⁓ even when electricity came in in the age of steam and electricity first came, it took about 20 years ⁓ for factories and ⁓ organizations who had access to electricity to fundamentally get any business benefit out of And do you know why? Because they looked at their architecture of their of the way that they were ⁓ distributing the power and the way they were organizing factories and their business processes in exactly the same way as they would were from steam, and they were then applying electricity on top of it and it wasn't working, it wasn't producing the benefit. It was only when they reinvented the business processes and the organizational design when they suddenly realized, look, electricity is producing all of this amazing value. And we're seeing this with AI right now. It's a much condensed time thing. ⁓ There's lots of people who are still organizing in the linear world, who've now taken this amazing transformative technology called AI, and they're slapping it directly on top of their existing linear processes. And they're going, where's the value? Show me the value. And the answer is you're not going to get very much value. So this is where human beings come in. The AI and the technology is not our business problem. That will keep on growing and developing at speed that and doing amazing things. Simon J Dudley (01:48:04) That's my ⁓ Julian Phillips (01:48:32) The real challenge is us human beings actually understanding that we need to reorganize ourselves. We need to now understand that it's how we change our business models, the way we think, the way we operate, the way we challenge a lot of the preconceived ideas of how stuff gets done, ⁓ and with AI helping us to achieve that at scale and at speed. And that's where you will un unlock the value moving forward. So again, remember history can teach us something. This happened with steam and electricity. It's happening the same kind. And and this is why economists and various people have identified the J curve. They identified the J curve of technology, innovation, and computing and what have you. We've now got a massive J curve ⁓ that is actually emerging right now. But the opportunities ⁓ are immense. Simon J Dudley (01:49:22) Yeah, I I think we're in violent agreement on this one. I think one of the things that's happening, which is ⁓ unspoken, is lots of large organisations are implementing AI tools, but the people who are implementing them don't really understand what the workers are doing. And the workers are often ⁓ using their own tools, not telling leadership that they're doing it, making themselves far more productive. And either taking the opportunity to grab some more of their own time ⁓ or just being more productive. And I actually also think that plays into the whole return to office thing. Return to office means I've got to look like I'm doing work. But if I could do all of my work in an hour at home and spend the rest of the day doing something nicer, ⁓ or something I w choose to do because I'm using AI tools, I think there's a really interesting argument in there somewhere. But Perhaps that's for another conversation. ⁓ you and I are in violent agreement on much of this. Julian Phillips (01:50:19) I I wrote I have a ⁓ on LinkedIn, if you follow me on LinkedIn, then subscribe to my newsletter called Intelligent Humility, which ⁓ you know, I write an a ⁓ a fresh article every week. ⁓ and there was an article that I wrote called the Dreamliner Paradox. And that was ⁓ from a real life experience when I was ⁓ sitting on a Dreamliner at Philadelphia Airport waiting to fly down to Miami for a business meeting. ⁓ and By a quirk, ⁓ I got upgraded ⁓ through my American status, but because it was an international flight connecting through Miami, it was full-blown first business class, right? So recliner seat, very lovely. I was feeling very proud of myself. The problem was that we didn't actually leave for three hours from the schedule time, ⁓ and it was nothing to do with the most advanced technology on this ⁓ advoc most advanced wonderful airplane or any of the AI systems about you know routing and weather prediction and all the rest of it. It was to do with a mechanical failure ⁓ of a device loading luggage into the hold. And I reflected on the fact that ⁓ despite all the amazing advancements in technology on the plane, failure was the result. you know, I was gonna miss my business meeting, half the plane were gonna miss their international connections to their vacations. ⁓ failure was the result because of an archaic process and system and piece of mechanical technology that probably wasn't maintained properly, and people ⁓ seem to be standing around not knowing what to do to get it fixed. ⁓ and then I reflected about the Dreamliner paradox as far as AI. We've now set very exciting possibilities of what AI and this investment in ⁓ trillions eventually, trillions of investment in AI. Julian Phillips (01:52:15) but the paradox will hold. If the rest of how we work ⁓ does not keep pace and change in tune with what the AI is capable of doing, we will experience failure. In fact, what we'll have is a very expensive and very complicated queue where we're waiting for the the the weak, if you like the weakest link or the the the thing that's out of sync to actually work so that the rest of it can actually work. Now, the good news is that AI and and more advanced technology. Which is where the book Data Gentism comes from, about how data and AI agents and storytelling all come together, can help us to reimagine what those processes are at a speed that we've never known before. But we as humans have to do the hard work of imagining what that is going to be, and the harder work of unthinking the way it is today and challenging ourselves to make the change. So ⁓ do am I Extremely confident about the possibilities of what AI can bring and this whole change absolutely way beyond anything I can even imagine or any of us can imagine right now. Am I also realistic about us as human beings ⁓ and the challenges it takes for us to change? I'm also realistic about that. But so it's a human problem, it's not a technology problem. Simon J Dudley (01:53:33) Okay. Julian, this is fascinating conversation. What's the next couple of years look like for you? Julian Phillips (01:53:40) Well, expect more change. ⁓ expect more AI conversations. ⁓ I I'm very excited about what we're doing at AVISPL with AI. ⁓ you know, like most of us, we're still exploring and still figuring things out. We are deliberately taking our time. You know, we've also learnt that ⁓ we have to do it properly, which is why we have the AI Centre of Excellence, which is why it is a multi ⁓ functional group, cross functional group. It's got everybody from legal to HR to supply chain to sales to marketings. Everyone's involved in looking at the whole of the business and how AI can help us move forward. So that's gonna be exciting stuff. Expect new books. ⁓ expect a novel. There you go. So there is a novel in production right now that will be out there before Christmas. ⁓ it is a Cold War spy thriller. So ⁓ that is coming. ⁓ and ⁓ more of me doing stuff experiential, ⁓ new projects coming from XTG. There's lots of exciting projects in the Hopper. ⁓ and also I I'm gonna put my foot down ⁓ and accelerate the work I'm doing in the Future Talent Council and various other things because I think it's a really important we are at a this pivotal moment right now, ⁓ where we have to ⁓ own own the conversation, own the narrative, take it away from the doomsayers and and the fantasists, and we have to actually start grounding it ⁓ in real conversations about real people doing real things with real outcomes. And ⁓ so I think, you know, I want to spend more time doing that. Simon J Dudley (01:55:25) Okay, two last questions for you. ⁓ What's your recommendation when you meet young people today? What would you say is if if you could give them a piece of advice, what would you what would you say? Julian Phillips (01:55:27) Mm. Julian Phillips (01:55:39) Well, I get to do it quite a lot because of my work on education, ⁓ and I'm gonna get to do it in Malta next week, and so I'll tell you exactly what I'm gonna say then. In fact I have a whole slide on it. I've literally just finished my deck. And I'm gonna say something that might be a little bit surprising, let's say, to a twenty one year old. So I I'm now reflecting on the fact that, you know, when I was twenty one, ⁓ it was nineteen eighty six. ⁓ Da da forty years on, if I were talking to myself as a twenty-one year old, I'd say this, and I will say this to the 20-year-olds or the 20-somethings or even the teenagers I'm gonna meet next week. You have an exceptional privilege. And that's not what they're expecting to hear. Because of the narrative about AI anxiety and the way the world is right now. And the reason I'm gonna say you have a privilege. It's because you are now at the beginning of a new era for mankind and humanity. I can't say mankind, humanity. ⁓ It is a privilege that I did not have. It is a privilege that my parents and nor my grandparents had because they were already in the middle of a previous era and didn't have the opportunity to help shape what that era is going to be. So I want to give a very positive message to young people that. Yes, there are things to be concerned about, but there are also things to have wonderment about. There are things to be excited about. There are things that you can help be part of shaping into the future. And this is the moment where you need to get involved. Simon J Dudley (01:57:21) That's a fantastic story. And I I agree with you. I think I think we're living in a world of there's too much fear and I suspect that's being stoked as well as is somewhat founded by folks who don't understand what they're looking at. I ask my guests this as my final question every week. What should I have asked you about that I didn't? Julian Phillips (01:57:47) Well, you asked me a lot of wonderful questions and you asked me a lot about my journey through life. ⁓ and I described a lot of that. Maybe a question you could have asked is what motivates you, Julian? Why am I doing why am I doing the things I'm doing? S certainly now? Simon J Dudley (01:58:09) Why don't you answer your own question? It is a very decent one. Julian Phillips (01:58:13) I have a ⁓ as I said, I'm doing the speech in Malta next week and I I have a an early slide. Where ⁓ I talk about because I do style myself ⁓ as a bit of a futurist, but I challenge what a futurist is. And I'm I'm basically destroying the whole concept of a futurist. Cause if you think a futurist is is about someone that can predict what the future's gonna be, then good luck to you, because no one can predict what the future's gonna be. And so I sort of redefine it and I say a futurist should be somebody that helps explain The way the world is and helps people navigate the way the world could be in the future. I think that's that's the value of a futurist. ⁓ And so that's my motivation, ⁓ or that's what I want to do. Now, what's my motivation? ⁓ I then show a picture of my three grandchildren, ⁓ and then I talk about intergenerational balance sheet. That we as ⁓ a an economist, ⁓ economy and ⁓ an overall global society have consumed way beyond what was reasonable for us to consume. If you actually look at global debt ⁓ today compared to what it was when I was ⁓ born in nineteen sixty five the world had ⁓ one year of GDP as debt indebtedness globally. Today the world has three years ⁓ of ⁓ GDP. ⁓ as indebtedness. Now you think that's not a big leap, you know, one year to three year. But global global GDP in nineteen sixty five was two trillion dollars. Today it's three hundred and forty trillion dollars. So on the basis that we have not only managed to go from two trillion to three hundred and forty trillion, which is an amazing achievement of growth and prosperity, but we've also indebted ourselves three times to that value. Julian Phillips (02:00:13) So not only do we have financial debt that we are now passing down onto our children and grandchildren, we also have a climate debt that we are now passing down. We also have an institutional debt. In other words, we haven't done enough to change our institutions, to modernize them and get them ready for this this new era. We have a societal debt ⁓ in the gross inequality that is growing bigger and bigger ⁓ at this moment in time. We have an educational debt. We have a demographic debt where ⁓ certainly in developed economies, we're getting older but we're not making enough babies, which basically means is that we're putting an even greater burden on young people coming into the workplace to look after us old crusties. So when we look at the inter intergenerational balance sheet, it's not a good story. ⁓ and I'm not prepared, if you're looking at my motivation, I'm not prepared to hand this off to my grandchildren with a shrug and an apology. I I think we actually have to start doing something about it now. And I don't think we can necessarily solve all of it. That would be unrealistic, but we s we bloody well have to try. So there's my motivation, Simon. Simon J Dudley (02:01:22) That was probably the best question that you asked yourself ⁓ the entire thing. So thank you for chat that Julian. All right, everyone. This has been a truly fascinating conversation. And if you got this far in it, then I suspect you think the same as well. So, Mr. Julian Phillips, thank you so much for your time today. This has been an absolute joy. ⁓ everyone, join us next week for the next wonderful guest, whoever that turns out to be. ⁓ And ⁓ we shall see you all soon. Thanks again. Julian Phillips (02:01:52) Chair Simon.